From Guilt to Good with Jeanette Yates
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From Guilt to Good with Jeanette Yates
How to Have Hard Conversations With Aging Parents Without Creating Resistance
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Talking to an aging parent about driving, assisted living, finances or accepting help can quickly turn into an argument.
According to Aging and Change Coach Tami Calais, one reason is surprisingly simple: families often begin the conversation with the solution already decided.
“Mom, you need to stop driving.”
“We need to talk about assisted living.”
“You need someone helping you at home.”
After 16 years in senior living, Tami has seen what happens when families wait until a crisis forces these decisions — and what changes when they begin the conversation earlier.
In this episode, Tami joins Jeanette Yates to explain how motivational interviewing, curiosity, empathy and values-based conversations can help caregivers understand what their aging parents actually want instead of immediately trying to persuade them.
They discuss the difference between Solution Forward and Feelings Forward conversations, navigating role changes between parents and adult children, talking with someone who has dementia, caregiver burnout and why one of the most powerful caregiving skills may simply be learning how to ask instead of tell.
Tami's driving example captures the approach particularly well: rather than immediately asking someone to surrender their keys, she suggests asking what feels different about driving compared with five years ago.
Guest Bio
Tami Calais is an Aging and Change Coach with 16 years of experience in senior living. Her work focuses on helping adult children and families navigate difficult conversations around aging using motivational interviewing, empathy, curiosity and values-based communication.
She is also the creator of Hard Conversations Handled Well: Aging Parents Edition, a five-week program designed to help families develop the skills and confidence to navigate resistance, changing family roles and difficult decisions. Tami describes the program as covering safe-space building, ambivalence, curiosity, reflective statements and putting those tools together into an ongoing conversation framework.
Resources
Tami Calais / Aging and Change Coach Website
Social
@agingandchangecoach
Hard Conversations Handled Well: Aging Parents Edition
Jeanette Yates Website INCLUDING Trusted Care Tech Resources
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At The Self-Caregiver LLC we guide women caring for their aging parents overcome burnout and release guilt to create more freedom and fulfillment in their life.
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My mother had a way of dodging the hardest conversation of all. What would happen if she ever had to leave her home for a facility like an assisted living or nursing home? She'd say things like, you cannot let that happen, ever. Or she'd change the subject entirely. Or she'd tell me, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. For years I thought I was asking because I wanted to understand her more, and now I realize I was asking out of my own fear and uncertainty, not out of an attempt to actually hear her. My guest today, Tammy Callet, has spent 16 years in senior living, watching families wait for the driving to get worse or for the falls to keep happening, for the memory to slip further, hoping the conversation would just somehow get easier if they just waited a little longer. Spoiler alert, it doesn't. She helps adult children start that conversation now with confidence and without losing themselves in the process. And it starts with something most of us were never taught. How to ask instead of tell. Hi, my name is Jeanette. I'm the founder of The Self-Caregiver. I care for my own mother for several decades, and now I help caregivers set boundaries and use simple tools that make care and life easier so they can feel good, not guilty. Welcome to the podcast, Tammy. Hello, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Yes, I'm so excited to have you too. We've already, you guys, we already talked offline for like 30 minutes. I should have recorded that conversation too, but here we are. We're getting started. And let's get started with your own connection to caregiving. You're a little bit different than some of my guests, but you do have a connection. You've said that being a mom of two toddlers often feels like its own form of caregiving. Totally relate. And the through line actually goes back further, though, to 2010 when you started working in a senior living capacity. So can you walk me through that a little bit?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, I started working in senior living communities up in 2010. And at first I got the job and I was like, I don't know if this is going to be a fit for me. But honestly, I started working there and I fell in love with it. Like talking to senior citizens every day and hearing their life stories, and then honestly gleaning their wisdom just brought me so much joy. It was amazing. But I did that for quite a few years, and then I ended up working on the corporate side of things, and I started learning this skill set called motivational interviewing, which really had me entranced because it is an altruistic way of being with people, not just communicating, but how we show up. And I love that. And I saw amazing outcomes when it came to having these conversations with senior citizens. And so I ended up diving into that a little bit deeper. And then fast forward to 2022, I ended up just taking a little break because I had two kids at home. And that brought me to my caregiving story. And, you know, when I was working in senior living, I had so much sympathy and a little bit of understanding of the caregiving process for family members. But it wasn't until I became a mom that I just always have this gut check in my stomach because I think about how exhausted and tired and depleted I am as a mom to two toddlers. And every time I feel that way, I also think of senior citizens, specifically spouses taking care of a loved one with dementia. And I go, wow, every single night I put my kids in bed and I at least have, you know, a 10-hour respite to sleep and take care of my body. And these caregivers don't. They are still worried about their spouses leaving the house or, you know, turning on the stove or getting into something or not sleeping. So they don't sleep. And long story short, it just has given me this massive amount of respect and empathy for these caregivers because it's a lot.
SPEAKER_01Well, and you talk about spousal caregivers, which is certainly a huge chunk of caregivers. But then there's also the ones that are that have two toddlers at home and also are caring for parents or helping their dad take care of their mom or whatever. And so that is even that added pressure. And it a lot of times people just are not aware before they experience it exactly what their body is going to go through. It's just in their mind and their emotion.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I mean, the lack of bandwidth you have, the exhaustion. You know, I think about what you just said too. You know, I have two toddlers. If I was in the middle of a crisis with an aging parent, gosh, I would, I think I might lose my mind.
SPEAKER_01It's a lot. Yeah, it is. It is. So you've already mentioned this a little bit, but we're gonna dive more into the concept of motivational interviewing. So you spent time in senior living. How did you learn more about it? How did you encounter motivational interviewing? And then how did that change how you saw every hard conversation moving forward?
SPEAKER_02Well, first off, I learned it doing senior living sales. So I was helping people come into the community. And the company really started doing it because they were like, we don't want people to move in and then move out. Like, we want people to actually choose this and be excited about it and empowered. And that just shifted all my mindset and my thought process behind these hard conversations. Because when you enter into them going, oh, I need to get you here, or I need you to do something, that's a very different energy and space than, hey, I'm here to help you uncover your own thoughts and feelings on. And that just really got me. And the fact that I not only learned it, loved it, but that I started seeing it work in many, many ways was just so powerful to see people going, no, I'm excited about this. I want to do this because of X, Y, and Z versus, oh, I have to move to assisted living. And that's a powerful thing. I also saw it with caregivers too, the family members I used it with, and you know, them going, okay, instead of I have to do this to my loved one, it was like, these are the reasons why this is going to bring joy or it's going to help them. And so it just kind of shifts the conversation from a pushing method to more of an asking and drawing out method so people can hear their own words on change rather than persuading and convincing people to change.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think too, with you know, like with my mom, and you know, she got sick when I was little. So I was hearing from the time I was a child, never let me go into a home, never let me go into a home. You know, it's like something that she said on repeat for 35 years. And but it took me really talking to her, like, what are you afraid of? Like, why do you not want to, like, other than you know, the obvious scary television show or whatever? Like, what is what is your reasoning behind this? And then I was able to address those reasons with a little bit more practical information than just like exasperation and frustration and fear, you know, of my own. So yeah, I can definitely see how that would help.
SPEAKER_02And and those conversations are really hard because people are stuck in their own heads with their own fears. And when we can, again, give them a space to articulate those fears and also share some information, that can be a really powerful place for people to where it doesn't feel like you're pushing them towards it, but you're really just partnering with them. And that's what I think about it. Like I think of myself as a partnership. I'm here to help you understand your own thoughts a little bit better.
SPEAKER_01Right. And I think too that, you know, there is this, you know, for me, I had a list of things that good caregivers never do that I don't know where it came from. And so, like, I think that having these conversations really helps break down what those beliefs are, where they came from, and whether or not they are actually things that still hold true in your life today. So I think that it sounds like a wonderful way to have a conversation. We're gonna go a little deeper into the conversations. You've told a story of a man named Steve who sat with you and cried on your shoulder while he was having to make one of the biggest decisions of his parents' lives. Can you tell us a little bit more about that story?
SPEAKER_02Well, so first off, I want to start with this is kind of my why. This is what drives me because I was 27. This was a 40, probably 43 to 45 year old man that came in. So this was about the fall of 2014-ish, I think. And he had come in to tour the assisted living I worked at for his aging parents. His aging parents had a little bit of memory loss, and so he was trying to be proactive and and see what's out there. So we looked around the community, we talked through some options, and then at the end of the tour, you know, I gave him some information and and he went home, like so many tours do. And about a month later, he called me in an absolute crisis. He called me because he was like, My parents got into the car like they always got into the car on their way to the grocery store, a drive they had done thousands of times before. But on that drive, they got lost and they got confused. They ended up driving eight hours away to the Blue Mountains and were found alive by a park ranger there. They were disoriented, so confused, and very dehydrated. And so Steve called because he was like, I clearly can't leave them home alone anymore. And as he had come in and started looking at options with me, he actually started crying on my shoulder in the middle of the hallway of this assisted living building because he was like, One, I'm an only son and I have no one else to talk through this with. It's just on me. And then secondly, he was like, I wish I would have at least had some conversations with them about what they would have wanted. Because he's like, right now, I feel like I am putting them in this place rather than me knowing this is the place they would have wanted to go if a crisis happened. And he's like, those are two very distinct things. And he's like, I wish I would have had this conversation. So Steve ended up moving his parents in and everything settled down and was calm. But that story just has stayed with me for years because I'm like, these conversations can happen earlier. These situations can be preventable. And honestly, when we have these conversations proactively, it actually creates more connection with our aging parents than disconnection because suddenly we're actually giving voice to their wishes. And we all we have to do as adult children is just follow through on the plan that they create.
SPEAKER_01Right. Right. Thank you for sharing that. And you know, it sounds like you were able to walk Steve through the process and get him to a place where he was able to accept what was happening. But then also that taught you about conversations that families keep putting off. And that's one of the things it's not just this type of conversation, though this is a big one, but there are other types of conversations that we put off all the time. Can you give me some examples of other types of things that we don't talk about?
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, a lot, I mean, there's so many different things. Finances, you know, whether your loved ones has the finances to pay for support in the future or not. Another one is also finances. How involved do you want me to be? You know, before we got on here, Janine and I were just talking a little bit about scams. And, you know, the more involved you are as an adult child, the less likely, well, I can't guarantee that, but hopefully the less likely your parent will be to succumb to scams. So having those open conversations can be really helpful. Driving is an easy one that, well, not an easy one, but it's one that families often avoid as well. So there's so many different conversations around the aging process that if we just start to open up that conversation and get your aging parents' thoughts on it, it does two things. One, it starts to let them process things so they can think about maybe what they would want, what they wouldn't want, some of those type of things. But two, if you actually can get some clarity as to their wishes, now all of a sudden the adult children just get to come in and execute their loved ones' wishes versus become the decision maker, which most adult children don't want to become the decision maker. We want to just honor our parents' wishes.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so let's say a family does finally decide to have the conversation with an aging parent.
SPEAKER_02What's the single biggest mistake they make right out of the gate? Oh, most families start with solution forward conversations or agenda forward conversations. Mom, we need to talk about assisted living. Mom, we need to talk about getting in home care. Mom, you're not safe to do those things. When we start the conversations that way, we are just asking for resistance, if I'm being frank. We are asking them to defend themselves and why that solution is not going to work for them. So that's the single most common way that we are setting ourselves up for unsuccessful conversations is by starting solution forward. I want to talk about assisted living.
SPEAKER_01That is so interesting. I love it's like obvious when you say it. Like, of course, we're like, you know, you need to stop driving, you need to go into assisted living, you need when really there's another option. And so you talk about feelings forward instead. So tell me what feelings forward looks like instead. If solution forward sounds like mom, you need to move, what does feelings forward sound like?
SPEAKER_02So feelings forward is stating whatever concern you have neutrally as possible. But I want to also side note, you have to do a little bit of prep work in yourself as well. If you show up rushed or, you know, busy, or I've got to have this conversation in five minutes, or you know, I'm stressed because my kids are talking in the background. Like if you're not in the right place to have this, you know, it's not gonna go well as well. So you have to start in a calm, regulated state as well. And it's just stating whatever concern you have up front neutrally. Like, for instance, my main example again, working in an assisted living, I actually had this story happen quite a few times, but people would fall in their garages and maybe fall and wait 24 hours before someone would find them. So a situation like that, I would say, yeah, I I'm curious, or I'd start with, you fell last week in your garage. How do you feel about that? So we're just stating whatever the situation was and asking their feelings. And this does two things. One, we are acknowledging the elephant in the room by stating it. And when we state it neutrally, hopefully we're not giving weight to either side of too much concern or you know, just you fell in the garage. Yes. And this is where tone of voice matters, and this is where whether we're regulated or not matters. There's a difference between, yeah, you fell in the garage last week. How do you feel about that? And you fell in the garage last week, mom.
SPEAKER_01How do you feel about that? Like my face would I would have to really work on my face because I would have like big bulging eyes and like exasperated.
SPEAKER_02It's easy for us to do because we care and we want them to be safe. But if we're gonna open up a safe space for them to explore it, we can't have those emotions in the room. So we have to state it neutrally and ask how they're feeling. And when we do that, it does two things. If they start to open up, we start to get an idea of their feelings on it. But if they stay closed off, it also cues us that maybe they're not ready to talk about it. And they're not ready to talk about it could be multiple things. Maybe they don't feel safe. Maybe, you know, we are showing up a little bit more rushed and dysregulated and not quite ready to listen. Or maybe, you know, they're just feeling overwhelmed in that moment because people are allowed to say, Wow, I I'm not okay to talk about this right now, but maybe in 10 minutes or maybe in an hour, give me a second to process. You know, that's okay too. But it does tell us something whether they talk about it or not immediately, which is helpful.
SPEAKER_01And also, you are indicating this, even though you didn't call it outright, but this conversation is not one conversation, it's a lot of conversations. So I mentioned at the beginning of the show, my mom had several tricks up her sleeve to get us to not continue talking about what would happen if she couldn't live on her own anymore. And that was because we talked about it frequently, especially as, you know, because when you're nine, you know, I was nine, 10, 15, your mom's saying, Don't put me in a nursing home, you're like, Of course, she'll just come live with me, whatever. It's fine. You don't think about it. But as things got more dire for her and more less safe, and all these kind of things in my life was changing and all of this, we would have these conversations more and more. And I had to develop, which for me meant I had to get into some therapy, to be perfectly honest. I try to mention this, I think I've mentioned it on every episode recently. But for me, I had to go to therapy because, like you mentioned before, I had to do some work on myself first because I needed to be in the right headspace and be with the right mindset before I because at this point, by the time I was able to talk about this with her, we were really teetering on the edge. And it was all we were in a holding pattern.
SPEAKER_02And honestly, people get triggered by other people. So sometimes when you have that dynamic in a relationship, like you said, taking a step step back and going, okay, I can't control them, but I can choose how I show up. So I'm going to work on myself and get in a better place so I can show up in this situation.
SPEAKER_01Now, and it was a work in progress. So if you're listening and you're like, that is, I just know that sometimes I would go in with the best mindset ever, and then like it we there would be a slam door at some point. So it's a process, but people like Tammy can help, which we're gonna get into later, but shift topics a little bit and talk about shifting roles. So this is what a lot of us deal with when it comes to caregiving. We feel this tension between wanting, you know, this is our parent. They've told us what to do for the most of our lives, and probably even as we're adults, they're still telling us what to do. And if you're my age, and you know, maybe all ages, I don't know. But I feel like there's a certain demographic of people that we were taught to obey our parents, period end of story. No bartering, no, you know, there wasn't this sense of chit-chatting about it, which I'm not saying is all a bad thing, but you know, that was how it was. You know, you your parents said whatever, you did what they said, which is definitely the dynamic I had with my mom. But we want to stay at least in the dynamic of being the son or daughter. Like I don't want to be in charge of my parents, and we don't want to parent our parent. You said that identifying these expectations is a big part of navigating this shift. What does that really look like in practice? And I have my own thoughts as well, by the way.
SPEAKER_02It's acknowledging it and talking about it. So sometimes it's acknowledging your part of the shift or their part of the shift, whatever it is, but it's saying things like, Yeah, mom, I notice sometimes when I show up, I tend to show up as a parent to you. Do you notice this? And how do you feel about that? And that again just starts the conversation about this subtle role shift. I will say it's interesting because senior citizens actually play into this role shift sometimes as well. I was talking to an adult son the other day, and he was, he travels for work and he's never in town. And well, he was coming in town for work, but he was also gonna see his mom. And his mom was like, Oh yes, and I made a doctor's appointment and told him he had to come with me. And I was like, that's awesome if you want him to be involved, you know, with your doctor's appointment because you want a second set of ears. But she alluded to, you know, that was the purpose, the reason for connection with him. And I was like, in my head, I was like, oh man, there's a difference between, hey son, I want to spend time with you because I love you, or hey, I want you to come to this a doctor's appointment to be my second set of ears because I'm concerned about something. But when you get into the role shift of, oh, I need you to do this just to spend time with me, you are actually creating this, this accidental role shift as a senior citizen as well. And so when we can acknowledge that as well, it can be really powerful. So even just saying something as simple as like, hey, mom, did you want to just spend some one-on-one time with me? And that's what you're looking for with the doctor's appointment, or did you actually have a need for me to go to the doctor's appointment? I just want to be clear on what you're hoping for.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's so that's so good. And I know my mom and I, we had a miscommunication about that, and it took probably years for us to be able to talk about it or even understand what was happening. But her care needs were so big, you know. And I had my kids and my job and all this kind of stuff. So I was coming in and doing the things I needed to do and, you know, appointment and you know, all this stuff. And then I would be like, okay, I'll see you tomorrow. And I would leave and she would say, like, can't you sit down and visit? And I'm like, what are you talking about? I've been here for whatever. But it took me a while to really understand. She knew I'd been there doing the caregiving things, but she also missed the daughter. We're from the south where you sit on the porch and you drink your tea and you visit. So, like, she was missing that. First of all, identifying that and then figuring that out was how that was going to work. Cause really I didn't have a ton of time. And so our solution was listen, during the week when I come over, I got to do the things I got to do. We can chat while I'm doing it, but I got to do the things I got to do and go.
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SPEAKER_01Saturdays, that's our time, you know. And so we were able to, you know, that set an expectation for her. Like, hey, she's not gonna be able to visit every single time. She got to do stuff. But also there will be this designated time. And I mean, from I did it before she went into the nursing home, and then I did it when she was in the nursing home. Every Saturday I was there unless I was out of town, you know, unless there's something weird happened. But if it wasn't Saturday, it was Friday, you know. But that was one day a week was the time that we had to just visit. And I didn't do anything I didn't like absolutely have to do. And I sat down and listened. So, but it took, y'all, it took years. And I also wanted to talk a little bit because I think sometimes we, especially those of us who are parents, before we start taking care of our loved one, once we realize it's going on and we've we've given in to the fact that we're gonna have to take care of our parents, it is what it is, you know, whatever. We haven't had any conversations, we just flip that switch. And then we expect our parent like do as we expect our kids to do. So, like if I tell you to do, if I tell you not to turn on the stove, don't turn on the stove. Or if I tell you, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, it's time to take a bath, it's time to, and that is not exactly there are many similarities between caring for your aging parent and caring for especially a baby, but it is different. And there have, you know, the navigating that part of it too, and not just, you know, having your brain understand this is not just the roles aren't reversing necessarily, even though it feels like that sometimes.
SPEAKER_02Yes, you're just showing up differently. And that's what I talk about, and we're gonna talk about this later, but my hard conversations handled well is just recognizing sometimes how we show up really matters. And when we start to recognize, oh my gosh, I'm showing up as a parent all the time, your aging parent is not getting that connection that they're longing for. I was gonna share a story with this, if you don't mind. This side of this, I don't remember if we talked about this before, but I remember seeing this role shift with my grandparents when I was probably 10 or 12. And I didn't fully comprehend what I was seeing until recently when I started like talking about this and talking about the role shift, and I was like, oh my gosh, I saw this because my grandparents lived four hours away from my family. And so there was a period of time where my mom was having to drive down every Saturday to refill their medi sets, get them groceries, get all the things done that they needed to get done, and then she'd head home. So we'd leave at like eight in the morning, I'd go with her, and then we'd get there around, you know, noon, spend three hours there, and then drive home all in one day. And I remember again feeling and recognizing wow, we used to go to grandma's to like visit and have fun, and suddenly I'm there to do jobs and to work. You know, my job was to take out all the trashes and to vacuum and you know, do those basic things. And it shifted a little bit my feelings as well about visiting my grandparents. And of course I love seeing them, but yeah, I I wasn't getting the connection that I wanted either.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, my kids, I you know, I think they would say I try not to speak for them because but I think I definitely noticed a shift with how because they're you know, depending on where my mom's disease process was and how the kids were, you know, she was able to spend time with them, or I was able to even drop them off sometimes. But then there became a time where they were like, we have to work, like it's not fun because we have to do all this stuff. And on the one hand, you're like, you want to encourage your children to be kind and be helpful, but on the other hand, it's like, but also I get it, where you you just want to spend time with your grandmother and not have to do chores. And you know, like I remember doing chores with my grandmother, but she was doing them with me. So it was, you know, it's kind of yeah, it was well, grandma Blanchard, she had high expectations, but you know, it was as fun as it could be, and you know, it all that stuff. But yeah, I definitely saw that shift there with them where they were they stopped being so excited to even go with me.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for articulating that because I think those of us with children that are dragging our children along, you know, how we show up for them while we're also showing up with our parents is and it's a subtle shift, just like you articulated, Jeanette, like where you said Saturdays are gonna be my connection days. Maybe it's you know, taking if you know you're gonna be there for 45 minutes, tell your kids, I want you to ask grandma these two questions before you start any of your chores. And maybe it's like, tell me your favorite childhood memory and tell me about your best Christmas. You know, something that brings a little bit of connection before you get to the chores or the things that need to get done.
SPEAKER_01Another thing that we did with that whole like on during the weekdays, it's gonna be like this, on the weekends, it's gonna be like this. Was some days I would have an hour, some days I would only have 30 minutes or or whatever. So I would make sure when I showed up, I would say, okay, I've got 30 minutes. What do you need me to do? You know, because that also helped her prioritize what needs to be done now versus what can you know a friend or an aide or somebody do later. And so that was really helpful for us. Another thing that really helped with once I did get the courage and the therapy to have these hard conversations with my mother was she had all of her cognitive abilities for, you know, so when I was engaging in these questions with her, they weren't easy, but I could use logic and reasoning and emotional intelligence and all of these things, and we could have a conversation. But a lot of caregivers listening, a lot of people are dealing with a loved one's care with somebody who has dementia. And the dementia changes how the conversations work completely. So you've talked about the answer being empathy. Uh, and so I want you to talk about how the conversation shifts and maybe anything that we need to know about navigating that resistance with someone who has dementia versus just someone who's being stubborn.
SPEAKER_02Well, there's two things I want to acknowledge. First, I want to talk about actually the writing reflex. And um, it's something again at my class or my program, but we all have this innate reflex in us that wants to help people when we see them stuck or hurting or struggling, all these things. And that writing reflex is us wanting to fix it, to solve it, to educate people, make sure they have the right information, or to be direct with them. You need to do this. And again, this comes from a very natural place. We want to do this. And the first thing I want people to recognize is I don't want you to get rid of this writing reflex, but I want you to be aware of it because there's going to be times when you have to suppress it. Because when you show up to conversations, especially those with dementia, and this is my prime example I use, is when they go, they look out the window and they go, the sky is green, and we go, No, the sky is not green, that's our writing reflex. We're wanting to correct them because we're like, no, you have the wrong information. But in reality, what helps them the most whenever you encounter resistance is to live in their world, to try and understand what is happening in their world and articulating that for them. Even if they're seeing the sky as green, does that matter? You know, does it matter if they see the sky is green? No, not really. So yeah, sure, the sky's green in your world. That's okay. You know, it might be a little bit different if we're talking about something else. But even like people with dementia will often talk about, you know, oh, I'm talking to my grandma, and clearly they're not, you know. Does it really matter if they're if they're not talking to their grandma? Like, that's where they're at in this moment. We can just live in it with them. And empathy comes around in that space too. When we start to see the world through their eyes, which is what I articulate empathy as, and give words to the experience that they're having, that just brings more connection. When we go, wow, that sky is bright green. You know, they're gonna go, oh my gosh, she gets it. She's with me, versus going, no, that sky is blue. What's wrong with you? You know, that's disconnection versus connection.
SPEAKER_01Right. I recently had Kirsten Thomas with Kindred Mind Care on, and we talked a lot about validation theory, which is exactly what you're talking about, where when we have someone that has cognitive decline or dementia of some sort, we're not correcting them and arguing with them. We're trying to meet them where they are as much as possible. And the same is true in these hard conversations, which honestly, even what you were describing when you were talking about the motivational interviewing is kind of the same thing, just takes a little bit different. It's the same thing in the sense that we're meeting them where they are, even if they're living in the same world we are in the same reality. And then of course, it just has to shift a little bit when we're talking to someone with dementia, but the same principle applies. And I really, I think empathy, you know, so we talk about compassion fatigue a lot, but I sometimes I think part of, well, it is true, compassion fatigue, you know you have it when you stop being able to feel that empathy sometimes. And so that doesn't mean you don't care. It just means that you might need some space, some time, like we've been talking about, to think about this before you go in because you're going to have to muster that up, even on the, you know, when it's time to talk about these things. But then also maybe, you know, maybe it's not the day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So one statement that I think people resonate with is a lot of senior citizens will say, I'm not ready for assisted living, or I'm not ready for in home care or whatever the thing is, I'm not ready. And, you know, again, my job and what I do is I try to put myself in their shoes as much as possible. I try to imagine myself being right next to them, shoulder to shoulder, looking out at the window together and seeing the same thing that they see in that moment. And sometimes they get it wrong and they'll correct me. But because again, tone of voice is focused on um not telling, it's more just narrating. People tend to go, oh, it's not quite like that, it's like this, versus no, you got it wrong. But yeah, so like people in assisted living, people would say, Oh, I'm not ready for assisted living. And I one of my common responses was, yeah, you you look around here and you don't see anyone like you. Are they saying that? No, but they're probably feeling that way because most people do feel nervous at assisted living because they're like, I'm more active, or you know, I'm 85, but I feel like I'm 45, you know. So there's so many different things going on in their brain. But either way, they either typically respond with, yeah, I don't see anyone like me. That happened multiple times, or they say, Well, it's not quite that. It's it's that, you know, I love my house so much, or you know, I can't imagine moving, or I don't know what to do with all my stuff. Like, either way, I'm getting more information about what's actually happening up here by meeting them where they're at and using empathy to get there.
SPEAKER_01My mom was already in the nursing home when I had a similar conversation with her, but she was actually in the hospital, yet again, from the nursing home. They sent her over there, and she was had all this stuff going on. It was, and she had been back and forth to the hospital. And so a lot of the doctors had been talking to me about palliative care hospice. And by then I knew how to have these conversations a little bit differently. So I remember asking my mom, because she was a fighter, if I could just hold on to the next breakthrough treatment or whatever. So she always would push through as much as possible and knew that about her personality and her character. So I said to her, like, I said, you know, gosh, we've had to come back and forth because these antibiotics aren't working and you're or whatever. And I said, How will you know when it's time to stop? Like, I'm here to support you, but how do you how will you know? And so then we had a conversation about that because in my head, I'm like, why are we still doing this? But she obviously had a reason. And and like I said, she did not have cognitive decline. So we were able to have those conversations, but just opening that up for her to explain to me her thought process, and then I could address it from there was helpful to me.
SPEAKER_02I love that too, because when you start to get them to articulate what's going on in their head, we start to understand what they're feeling and thinking. But when we start to also talk about indicators or signs that you might be ready, then it just starts helping them to process what that future might look like. Oh, I'll be ready to stop driving, you know, when I feel nervous driving at night or when I have a couple fender vendors, or, you know, whatever it is.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so this next question is about for spousal caregivers. This is something that you talk about, but I have also heard this in my own family, and it broke my heart to see my family member struggling with this. But, you know, when the husband is caring for the wife and says, it's my duty to take care of you. And sometimes that means I'm not letting anybody else help because this is my duty. This is what I promised to do when we got married. How do we work through that in a structured conversation? That's well, two things. How can we help somebody articulate that in the first place? So maybe the husband is just living this but not able to share it. So how do we do that? And then also, how might we have a conversation or start a conversation about that with the couple themselves?
SPEAKER_02Okay, a couple things. So one of my favorite tools that I love using is called the Values Cards Exercise. You can Google that and find them online if you want to print out your own. I also include that in my program that people can access and use. But instead, my program is actually a worksheet that aging parents can fill out, which is nice. But I really love it because what you're trying to do, what I try to do, what motivational interviewing tries to do is help people think about their values first. And when we start articulating our values and what's most important to us, then our decisions kind of align or misalign with those values. And so when we start the conversation around the values, and actually going back to the very beginning of this conversation, once we get engagement with someone and we ask how they're feeling about a recent situation, then if we can start having a values-forward conversation about their value system and what's most important, that's what's going to help everyone feel really good about it. You're helping them to think about their values, and your aging parent is making decisions aligned with their values.
SPEAKER_01So, in some cases, getting, you know, allowing the husband to come to the understanding that one of his values is that it is his duty to care for his loved one. That is, that helps him align. Talk me through that a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And so from there, after we start to identify that maybe that's his value system, we can start talking about the different ways to take care of someone or to have the duty of taking care of them. Because oftentimes we get stuck in one mindset. My duty is to take care of someone. That means I'm going to physically be their caregiver. But in reality, if you think about what duty means that and the different ways that you can take care of someone, what are the different ways that you could, under you know, the value system of being your duty, what are some different ways you can care for your wife still? And when we ask that open-ended question, we'll start to get, oh, well, I might be a caregiver. Maybe it's helping us figure out assisted living before it's needed, maybe it's hiring in home care. So we can do that. What we're trying to do is create the conversation where there's multiple options and not just one. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for talking through that because on the one hand, like I understand as a, you know, I have a husband, we have a relationship and I feel duty bound to care for him. He feels duty bound to care for me. But then also we want to have one of the things that I remember thinking about in the case of my mother. So like I always also felt duty bound to care for her. My faith system, my belief system supported that. But one of the things I had to come to was my job is to care for my mom, make sure she has the best care possible. And I am no longer able to give her the best care. And that was hard to say, you know, if she was able to, if we were able to hire caregivers or whatever, that I would be able to help others care for her. And then I could, you know, do other types of caregiving things. And even when we brought people in, I remember there were things that they did and then there were things I still did. And then I remember when I got fired as the person giving her a shower because one of her caregivers did such a great job. She's like, no more of you. I'm using this person from now on. You don't have to do it. And I'm like, oh my gosh, that was my that was my favorite thing. I loved it. But anyway, yeah, so I think that's a really important conversation to have. And I love how you just broke that down for us. Thank you so much. So we're gonna get into, we're gonna talk about your program here in a minute, because I want you to tell everybody about all of that. But for people listening right now, and they're just they've heard us talking and they're like, okay, now I know this is the conversation I'm supposed to have, but they are dreading it. What's one feelings forward question they could lead with instead of solution that they're tempted to open with? Well, there's so many, it depends on the topic. So let's say the keys. The keys is a big thing. Let's do the keys.
SPEAKER_02Driving? The driving. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think one of my favorite questions, I just posted this on social media under Aging and Change Coach, so you can check it out. But asking the open-ended question, what's different when it comes to driving? What feels different than it did five years ago? And I love that because again, it's gonna go wherever your aging parent takes that question. They can talk about what they feel really good about. I, you know, five years ago, I'm much more patient now, I'm much more cautious, or they can start sharing concerns. You know, I'm feeling more nervous driving at night. I'm feeling more nervous, you know, being on the freeway. So I really like that question because it can go multiple ways depending on the level of vulnerability that your aging parent is ready to share with you.
SPEAKER_01Love that. Love that. And like we mentioned, you have a lot of resources to help caregivers process all of this stuff and have those hard conversations. Tell me about the caregiver coupon book before we jump into the other thing.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I am so excited. I I love this. So I built this. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about it. I built this because if I'm being very honest, even as a mom with two toddlers, I definitely feel like I reached some caregiver burnout and I just was depleted and I felt so alone in that process. And so many caregivers feel so alone and they don't have a support system. Meanwhile, family, friends, all these people want to support the caregiver, but they don't know what to do, which is why I created the caregiver coupon book. It's a roadmap for the family members, the people that want to support the caregiver specifically on different things that they can do to support them. And why this was so meaningful is in my little rut of caregiver burnout, you know, one day a friend randomly stopped by with two gallons of ice cream and left it at my doorstep and was like, hey, I'm thinking of you, you know. And I that just meant the world to me again because I felt like I was drowning. And then another time a friend actually just stopped by for an impromptu visit. She stayed for like 15 minutes. It wasn't super long, but just the fact that she took the time to like come and check in with me meant the world to me. And so the Caregiver coupon book is filled with probably like four or five items that do cost a little bit of money, like you know, bringing a meal by, but a lot of them are just positive, encouraging things to do, like reminding people of their strengths, your strengths as a caregiver, you know, letting them know that you're thinking of them and that you're there for them, you know, dropping a dessert on their doorstep, like my ice cream, you know, those little things that just let people know they're not in this alone. And as we start to build a little bit more trust with the caregivers themselves, they might start to rely or lean on the family or friends a little bit more to say, yeah, can you watch them for an hour? Or can you do this for me?
SPEAKER_01I used to love it when people would text and say they were going to see my mom and could they take her anything? I was like, always had a list. Always had a list. There's always something. Okay, so let's talk about you are launching. You've mentioned your program. Is it called Hard Conversations? What's it called?
SPEAKER_02Hard Conversations Handled Well Aging Parents Edition.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Break it down for us. It's launching on August 13th. Tell us about it and who it's really built for.
SPEAKER_02Update because I'm behind like every entrepreneur. Hard Conversations Handled Well launches September 1st. And it's a five-week program to teach people how to show up and have these conversations more effectively. I am not only teaching you the communication skills to navigate the roadblocks and the resistance as it comes up, but each week I'm giving you a weekly challenge to get a little bit more connected to your aging parent to have these conversations. So week one really is focused on building a safe space and also trusting what you're seeing. I added the trusting what you're seeing for those that are navigating dementia or some memory loss because you second guess yourself quite a bit. Week number two, we talk a little bit about ambivalence and we talk about the shifting of roles. And then week number three, we get into curiosity and how important that is into the process. Week four is the powerhouse that I think is my communication skill set, which is reflective statements. When we ask questions, I want to encourage people to ask questions, number one, but I want to also talk about a nuance to that. When we ask questions, it creates A mindset for the person that's being asked where they have to go, why are they asking me this? What do they want to hear? And what am I going to say? So it creates a little bit of an obligation when we ask questions. Reflective statements, when you start to learn that as a skill set, it allows people this space, it's an invitation to respond without the expectation or obligation to respond. And so that's when someone says, I'm not ready for assisted living, and I respond with, Yeah, you look around and you don't see anyone like yourself here. That's an invitation. They can respond if they want to, but they're not obligated. So that's why I like reflective statements in week four. And week five is how do we plan and put all this information together into a cohesive conversation? So over five weeks, people should be gaining the confidence and skills to handle the different parts of the conversation, but also how to actually start the conversation with what I call the SNACS method, which goes back to what you said earlier that this isn't just one conversation. It's called the SNACS method because it's gonna be a multiple conversations that you're gonna have over time that's going to build into one cohesive conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, and like to your point, you know, I knew I was gonna have to have this conversation with my mother about living in a facility of some sort. But that was not the first boundary I set with her, right? It was little teeny things and then bigger things and then bigger things. And so it sounds like that's what your program walks people through, which is really great. And they can find information about your program, your coupon book, all the things on your website. What's the best place for people to get in touch with you?
SPEAKER_02Yep, on my website, which is www.agingandchangecoach.com. But I always want to encourage people to follow me on social media because I'm sharing lots of tips and reminders and stuff, which is at Aging and Change Coach.
SPEAKER_01And I will link all of that in the show notes. And so I encourage everybody to go to the website, follow her on social media. We're both on TikTok and Instagram and we try to chit chat with each other from time to time. So that's always fun. We're talking about doing a live soon. So stay tuned for that because that might be happening. And if by the time this episode drops, we've actually scheduled that. So check out the show notes, guys. There's gonna be stuff in there. Uh anyway, so in addition to checking out your website, signing up for your program, getting a coupon book, are there any other resources that you love to highlight for caregivers that you might be able to access today?
SPEAKER_02Well, I always encourage people to join my newsletter because that's where I launch some of my new tools that I'm like, I'm not quite ready to put this out in the world yet, but let me see, you know, if you guys find this helpful. And last week I just launched one for them. So I mean, there's quite a few more tools when you're in my newsletter.
SPEAKER_01Great. I also wanted to just say another plug for you on social media, but also just in general with the people that you're already working with. You're very approachable. So, you know, you can reply to Tammy's email and ask a specific question. She works with caregivers all of the time. So it's not just a program that's going to give you, you know, information that just looks like it's going to be a comprehensive and something where you she gets to know you and you get to understand what she's going through. Would that be a fair statement to say?
SPEAKER_02Also, I'm like an overachiever by heart. So, like as I'm building out this program, what I also didn't mention is not only those are the things that we're covering each week, but we have a live session that's a group session each week. In addition to that, it's an online community that you're going to be plugged into. So to ask questions of the other community members, but you also get dripped some video content every single day as you're in the program. So you're not having to consume it all at once.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that's so great too for caregivers because you know you can't have something that's all only live group sessions or individual sessions, but to have that live component and the community component is so great because as we know, caregivers can always use more community.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. And your time, you just never know what's going to happen that day. You don't know if it's gonna work out.
SPEAKER_01So I get that. Well, Tammy, it has been great talking to you. I'm gonna have to have you on again. We've got so much to talk about. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Have a great day. If this conversation resonated with you, please share it with a caregiver in your life. And if you haven't already, subscribe to this channel so that you never miss an episode. You can find more resources out in the show notes, in the description, and at jeanette.com. Until next time, feel good, not guilty.
